As Palestinians Go to ICC, Human Rights Watch Alleges Israeli War Crimes for Shooting Fleeing Gazans
Topics
Guests
Kenneth Roth,
executive director of Human Rights Watch, which has
published a new report, "Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing
Civilians."
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As the 72-hour ceasefire in Gaza enters its second day,
Palestinian officials have been meeting with prosecutors at the
International Criminal Court to push for a probe of alleged war crimes
committed by Israel during the 29-day offensive that left nearly 1,900
Palestinians dead. Israel has said it attempted to avoid civilian
casualties in Gaza and accused Hamas of putting its people in harm’s way
by launching rockets from within densely populated districts. In a
report this week, Human Rights Watch accused Israeli soldiers of
shooting and killing fleeing civilians in Gaza, citing interviews with
seven Palestinians in the village of Khuza’a. We air testimony from
Khuza’a residents who survived the attacks, and speak to Human Rights
Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth.
Image Credit: Human Rights Watch
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH:
As the 72-hour ceasefire in Gaza enters its second day, Palestinian
officials have been meeting with prosecutors at the International
Criminal Court to push for a probe of alleged war crimes committed by
Israel during the 29-day offensive that left nearly 1,900 Palestinians
dead. On Tuesday, Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said his
administration was making efforts to have Palestine become a member of
the ICC, a legal step that would grant the court jurisdiction over war crimes in the territory.RIYAD AL-MALIKI: Well, of course, from our part, everything that has happened in the last 28 days is clear evidence of war crimes committed by Israel, that really tantamount to crimes against humanity. It’s not that, you know, I am saying that as a Palestinian; it was being really said by many observers, international experts on international law, who has really described this as war crimes. And as a result, you know, there is no difficulty for us to show a case or to build a case. Evidence is out there just, you know, for people to see and to collect.AMY GOODMAN: Israel has said it attempted to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza and accused Hamas of putting its people in harm’s way by launching rockets from within densely populated districts. Last month, Israel’s ambassador to Washington, Ron Dermer, dismissed the charges of Israeli war crimes. He said, quote, "Some are shamelessly accusing Israel of genocide and would put us in the dock for war crimes. But the truth is that the Israeli Defense Forces should be given the Nobel Peace Prize ... a Nobel Peace Prize for fighting with unimaginable restraint," he said. Those the words of Israeli Ambassador Ron Dermer speaking last month at the Christians United for Israel Summit in Washington, D.C.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, earlier this week, Human Rights Watch released a report accusing Israeli soldiers of shooting and killing fleeing civilians in Gaza. The group based its reports on interviews with seven Palestinians who fled fighting in the village of Khuza’a. The report was based in part on testimony from Ashraf Ibrahim al-Najjar, who was trapped in his house by shelling for three days, then shot at when he tried to leave.
ASHRAF IBRAHIM AL-NAJJAR: [translated] They were shelling us, artillery shells and missiles, while we were inside the house. We tried to get out and contact the Red Cross. No one responded. They said there was no coordination with Israeli authorities. So the shells fell down on our heads, on the building where we were staying, about 40 or 50 of us. We stayed there for three days under missiles and shelling.
At the time, since there was no Israeli coordination with the Red Cross, we decided to go out at our own risk. We said, "That’s it. We have to leave before the house falls on us." We got out to the street. We took the mothers and the children with us. We raised up the white flag and continued walking at our own risk. We were shot at about 400 or 500 meters from our house. We were shot at. We didn’t know if the shooting was by a tank or the special forces. God only knows.
AMY GOODMAN: Ashraf Ibrahim al-Najjar, speaking to Human Rights Watch.
For more, we’re joined in Washington, D.C., by Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch.
We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Ken. Can you talk about this finding of Human Rights Watch in Khuza’a?
KENNETH ROTH:
Yeah, I mean, this was a truly tragic case, I mean, as your
introductory segment showed. Khuza’a is a small town in the southern
part of Gaza. Beginning on about July 21st, it was the subject of fairly
relentless bombardment. Finally, after a couple of days, on July 23rd
through July 25th, families slowly tried to leave Khuza’a for their
larger city of Khan Younis nearby, hoping to find refuge there. And as
you would do in a situation like this, they raised white flags. They did
everything they could to make clear that they were not militants. But
on several different occasions, Israeli forces shot at them and actually
killed some among the people who were fleeing. And so it was as if, you
know, they’re damned if they stayed, damned if they fled, their lives
very much in jeopardy each step of the way.
NERMEEN SHAIKH:
Kenneth Roth, can you explain why Human Rights Watch has advised the
Palestinians to go to the International Criminal Court about these war
crimes? What would be the advantage of doing so?
KENNETH ROTH:
Well, you know, despite the Israeli ambassador’s claim that Israel
deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for its extraordinary restraint and its
extraordinary care to spare civilian lives, Human Rights Watch has seen
from the ground, based on our investigations in Gaza, that that’s
anything but the case. And no matter how many times the Israeli military
spokesmen scream, "Human shields! Human shields!" most of the people
being killed in Gaza are being killed because Israel is paying
insufficient care to saving civilian lives. There’s been case after case
in which Israel has used the wrong weaponry or has shot at people with
many civilians around. And these, in our view, are war crimes.
Now, neither Israel nor Hamas has any record
of bringing its war criminals to justice. And to be fair here, we should
note that Hamas is also committing war crimes by indiscriminately
sending rockets into populated areas of Israel. And so, given that
complete impunity within Israel and Gaza, the only real recourse that we
see is to the International Criminal Court.
Now, Palestine, having now been recognized by
the U.N. General Assembly as a state, actually is entitled to ratify the
International Criminal Court treaty, or even short of that, to simply
invite the International Criminal Court to come in and conduct an
investigation. I don’t quite understand what the Palestinian
representative was doing in The Hague, because this is not just a matter
of going and discussing whether maybe the International Criminal Court
might get involved. You know, they should stop the charade and just
invite the International Criminal Court in. It’s a simple thing to do.
Now, of course, the reason they’re not doing
it is probably twofold. I mean, one is that the U.S. government and
certain Western governments are shamefully putting pressure on the
Palestinian Authority not to do that, threatening to withhold aid and
all kinds of severe consequences. And this is their effort to protect
Israel from a proper war crimes investigation. The other factor which
may be playing a part is, of course, Hamas’s vulnerability to
prosecution, as well. And we don’t know to what extent Hamas is telling
the Palestinian Authority, you know, "Don’t you dare really bring in the
International Criminal Court, because we’re at jeopardy, as well."
But, you know, the bottom line is that this
charade is not real, and we hope that the Palestinian Authority will get
off the fence and go forward and actually invite in the International
Criminal Court as the only realistic prospect for bringing justice to
the many, many victims of these war crimes.
AMY GOODMAN:
Ken Roth, I want to go back to another one of the Palestinians that
your group, Human Rights Watch, interviewed about the attacks on
civilians in Gaza. This is Kamel Ibrahim al-Najjar.
KAMEL IBRAHIM AL-NAJJAR: [translated] I was safe at home when the bombs rained down on us for no reason. I don’t have any fighters or anything in the house. It was just me and my family in the house. We decided that this situation wasn’t going to work. There was a lot of shelling. We needed to get shelter under anything, anywhere. We went to our neighbor’s house, and we found out that they had a basement. The basement was full, about a hundred people.
The next day at 6:00 a.m., an F-16 strike hit us. Shrapnel fragments entered the basement through the windows, and the basement collapsed. There were 120 people in the basement; 90 percent were women and children. There were only about 10 men. I didn’t know where I was. Shrapnel went into my eye and my head. I couldn’t see anything because of the smoke from the F-16 strike.
AMY GOODMAN:
That’s Kamel Ibrahim al-Najjar. Ken Roth, executive director of Human
Rights Watch, talk about the significance of what Kamel is saying.
KENNETH ROTH:
Well, you know, one thing that Israel keeps stressing is that they are
issuing warnings to people to flee their homes as a way of protecting
them from this kind of bombardment. And to Israel’s credit, that’s a
good to do. The problem is that merely issuing a warning doesn’t make it
fair game to then attack or ignore anyone who remains, because
civilians remain at home for lots of reasons. Many just can’t bear to
leave their home. Some are infirm. Some don’t know where to go. Some are
simply paralyzed by fear. So, you know, what we stressed over and over
to the Israelis, even going back to the war with Hezbollah, is that
issuing warnings is not enough. They still have a duty to spare
civilians, do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties.
But instead, what we’re finding is that once
these warnings are issued, it’s almost like it’s fair game. And they
use, for example—The New York Times did an interesting study
yesterday—heavy artillery, 155-millimeter artillery, which is utterly
inappropriate in a densely populated area, because this kind of
artillery is considered accurate if it lands anyplace within a 50-meter
radius. You know, you can imagine there are a lot of civilians in that
area. It has a fragmentation and blast effect of 300 meters. And
nonetheless, Israel lets off barrages of these heavy artilleries. The New York Times
documented that yesterday. Or they’ll bring in their air force and
simply bomb, even though there are many, many civilians in these areas.
And it’s almost as if, you know, once they issue the warning, they feel
it’s fair game to simply level the neighborhood, despite the many
civilians who are still there.
AMY GOODMAN:
And can you talk about the categories of war crimes that you’re looking
at? I mean, when you talk about civilians who were being shot while
they’re fleeing, like we just heard earlier and that your report is all
about in Khuza’a, fleeing civilians.
KENNETH ROTH:
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, fleeing civilians—to shoot at a fleeing
civilian is an obvious war crime. That’s deliberately killing a
civilian, a noncombatant.
We’re also looking at situations in which the
Israelis are using indiscriminate means, such as heavy artillery in
heavily populated areas. The laws of war require you to use discriminate
means, to focus very narrowly on a military target.
We’re looking at other instances where Israel
has targeted a structure which is not a legitimate military target, it’s
a civilian home. Often what they’ll say is, "Oh, this was the home of a
Hamas commander," and then they’ll blow it up, even though it was the
family home and there’s no evidence the commander is even there. That
often results in civilian casualties, and that, too, is a war crime.
And finally, we’re looking at cases in which
there may well have been a militant there, but Israel fires even though
there are many civilians around. And so, you know, for example, when
they hit the beach cafe killing nine people watching the World Cup, we
don’t even know if there was a militant there, but that was a wholly
inappropriate time to shoot. Or when they claimed to have been going
after a militant, hit his family home and killed 25 civilians who were
breaking the Ramadan fast. These are clearly disproportionate harm to
civilians, a war crime regardless of whether there might have been a
militant in the vicinity or not.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Kenneth Roth, is this the first time that Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of war crimes since 2002?
KENNETH ROTH:
And I wish that were the case, but unfortunately, no. They seem not to
learn. I mean, we’ve gone through this in the prior Gaza efforts. We
went through it with the Hezbollah war. I actually, you know, after the
Hezbollah war, went and briefed the senior Israeli lawyer for the
military, describing many of these same problems, the fact that you
can’t just issue a warning and assume that everybody left, in that case,
is Hezbollah. So, you know, they are completely on notice. We’ve
accused them of this in the past. They just keep repeating it. And it
seems to be almost by design to try to make the people of Gaza pay a
price because Hamas is ruling over them. But, of course, you know,
that’s the same logic that they criticize Hamas for, where Hamas will
say, "Oh, well, you know, Israel elected Netanyahu, therefore any
Israeli civilian is fair game," or, "All Israeli males might go into the
military, so therefore we can fire indiscriminate rockets." I mean,
that’s a war crime logic, and Israel is oftentimes acting according to
the same logic in Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN:
We’re going to break and then come back to this discussion. Kenneth
Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. It’s published a new report, "Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians." We’ll be back with him in a moment.
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